Update: Ronn Motor Company to present Scorpion supercar at SEMA 2008

This makes little sense, at least not as written:
"The hydrogen fuel for the Scorpion is derived from fracturing water molecules drawn from a small on board water tank, which means the car doesn’t need to store the volatile fuel nor rely on hydrogen fueling stations. The on-board hydrogen system was co-developed with another company, Hydrorunner, and works through electrolysis of water using power generated from the vehicles electrical system."
If the water is the sole source of the hydrogen, and the "vehicles electrical system" is the sole source of the electricity for the electrolysis, then the sole source of power is coming from the battery. Which means we in effect have a reverse series-hybrid system. It is VERY doubtful that the energy loss is LESS in this system than in a plain, old electrical vehicle system.

OK, so I should have read the company's website:

"Hydrogen Fuel Injection (HFI):
Produces hydrogen during vehicle operation through electrolysis of water using the power generated from the vehicles electrical system. A small amount of hydrogen added to the vehicles intake air/fuel mixture allows the engine to operate with less fossil fuel. Ronn Motor Company will use this technology in its revolutionary Scorpion to achieve lower emissions and vastly improved fuel economy. "

This isn't about POWERING a car with hydrogen, it is about using Hydrogen as a FUEL ADDITIVE, not unlike Nitrous Oxide injection as found on numerous ricers. But unlike NOx this sounds like it may have promise by actually improving overall efficiency (and not just provide more oxygen to the engine).

MotorAuthority needs to a) learn to read and b) take a class in basic thermodynamics...

The vehicle's electrical system is the alternator connected to the Honda V6 engine - like regular vehicles. Some of the electrical energy generated by the alternator is used for the electrolysis process. The car is actually driven by an internal combustion engine. I edited the title as it's a little bit misleading but the rest of the story is fine.

When my math teacher ask me to prove 1+1=2
I didn't know where to start. thanks for putting it in basic form in the end Oskar.
the only advantage is that the power outcome out of the engines. I don't know which
is more powerful. I doubt we can break any speed record with battery but it should be
no difference to todays standards. Tesla have shown it.

I agree Oskar, the article doesn't describe clearly what powers the Scorpion. First paragraph: The Scorpio features an internal combustion engine that runs similarly to a BMW. Well, I read about a BMW before that has a V-12 engine that runs on regular gas and on liquid hydrogen. In second paragraph, at the end it says that the Scorpio is able to create its own fuel (hydrogen). Well; when you read this after you have read the first pargraph, you can get to the conclusion that the Scorpio is a "Perpetum Mobile of the First Kind", which is a violation of a Law of Thermodynamics; in other words, impossible. What I can derive from this is that in addition to the internal combustion engine that can run with gas and liquid hydrogen, the Scorpio has a hydrogen-fuel cell. The article also comments about the little tank of water, etc. So it looks as though the fuel cell is similar to those I am familiar with: they use electrolysis of water to break down a molecule of water to produce electricity, not more hydrogen. Hydrogen fuel cells produce water at the end after recombining hydrogen and oxygen. Electrolysis requires electricity; so, it is possible that the Scorpio has an additional battery for that purpose, a battery that could be assisted by a generator powered by the gas engine, and now the article can make more sense...

The car is powered by an internal combustion V6 engine that runs on a mix of petrol and hydrogen fuel, typically in a mix of 30-40% hydrogen and the rest petrol. The hydrogen is created from water by electrolysis, which draws electrical energy from the V6's alternator-generator.

burke, i think you're confusing the whole thing. oskars second post is correct. The vehicle doesnt need "multiple" battery systems. just like power steering and braking systems are moving to electric power.. you can add any electrical device to a car and not have to add in a new electrical system. basically, this V6 will be using its alternator more than usual because there will be more electrical load during the operation of the car. the electrolysis produces H2 and O2 for combustion purposes. now, you mentioned thermodynamics. Thermo states that if the engine were to run entirely off of hydrogen, and that hydrogen was being produced through electrolysis powered by leaching the output off the motor, the losses would always be higher than the gains. you cant run a car off of water. the amount of energy that it takes to turn water into hydrogen gas is the same amount of energy that you get when hydrogen gas is used to produce water. in a combustion, you get water, but energy in the form of heat instead of electricity. heat is barbaric and inefficient compared to electrical energy, so the losses very quickly add up.

as it was said, the hydrogen is used for combustion as an adative to change the dynamics of the gasoline explosion to produce a more effective energy transfer. strictly speaking, it shouldn't result in any gains what so ever (just losses) but evidently, the change in dynamics of the explosion accounts for a more efficient burn.

what I'd like to see is how far all of these techniques could go if all used together. it seems that ecoboost is the best forced induction technology right now, this seems to add another 10 or 20% efficiency.. the diesotto sparkless burn goes even further. just makes you wonder if you really could get 70mpg out of an E class or something along those lines (i say E class because thats the one car i would expect to see this kind of work done).

...BTW, I love MotorAuthority...

Chris, in Thermo ( The Second Law of Thermodynamics) and the Carnot's theorem the losses are always bigger than the gains in heat engines that operate cyclically, if you mean by gains free energy. Again your ideas identify fuel efficiency with engine efficiency, and that is not accurate. Gas engines' efficiency are about 25% this means that 75% of the energy produced by a heat engine are lost to the atmosphere as unused heat. I build cars with my students that use a hydrogen fuel cell to propel an electric engine. Wikipedia can provide a quick heads up to understand how fuel cells work...:-)

I think that anytime someone mentions hydrogen fuel cells or electrolosis it confused people because hydrogen can be used so many differient ways.

There is a company called horizon fuelcell that produces something called a PEM fuelcell that generates electricity from reconverting stored hydrogen back into water. PEM fuel cells are used like batteries.

Hydrogen can be combusted in place of petrol

And apparently it can be used in addition to petrol to augment ones fuel supply.

The pertinent thing in this article is that the Scorpion looks badass and uses a system made by Hydrorunner(never heard of them before) to both produce hydrogen on demand and reprogram the vehicle ECU to adjust petrol consumption to account for the addition of hydrogen and account for the lack of co2 in the exhaust emittions.

burke; that's exactly what i'm saying. you're converting energy and as far as that is concerned.. a mechanical device to capture explosive power is barbaric compared to an electrical device that uses ionic voltages to power a load. you're talking about a difference between (like you said) 25% and 90%.

what I was saying is that there's no point in using an ICE to generate electricity to separate water into a fuel to run the ICE. the system wouldn't run. but evidently, if you use say 95% of the power of that engine to drive the load, and 5% to create a fuel augmenter (hydrogen), apparently the effect of adding the hydrogen to the petrol mix makes it worth while. through thermo, it wouldn't make any sense. you'll put as much energy into the electrolysis as you'll get out of the explosion, of which you'll only recover 25% of. but evidently it actually changes the efficiency of the gasoline explosion, enough to recover the losses and actually gain some from the petrol. that's all I'm saying.

some one without any understanding of thermo might look at this article and say "well lets just get rid of the gasoline all together". and i'm saying.. not going to happen.

I am curious if a vehicle like the scorpion could be re-tuned to run on e85 instead of petrol.
How well would the milage improvement from the hydrogen augmenter work with e85?
e85 is super clean to combust but you get terrible milage. If you could increase your milage enough it might be worthwhile to use e85.

tom,... E85 is actually a superior fuel when used correctly. I don't know if the hydrogen addative would work with the E85. It sounds like some kind of trick of chemistry to me.

My background is Finance so can someone explain if this is a feasible idea. Have a car with large lithium batteries like a typical electric car and rely completely on electric motors for propulsion. Have a small water tank and an electrolysis device as described above creating hydrogen to be burned in a very small combustion engine ( I am aware that hydrogen would destroy a typical combustion engine, but on a very small scale I think it can be enginered safely and durably) use the small combustion engine as a genertor/altenator for electricity for the Lithium batteries and motor propelling the car. I know that this is not a perpetual cycle but it could greatly extend time between charges for the batteries(the main power source). This eliminates gasoline and emmisions. How about it?

In the hydrogen-powered BMW, the horsepower drops dramatically when the car runs on hydrogen; I assume that is why they use the V12 engine for that car. It seems to me that if you add hydrogen to a conventional engine, the horsepower and gas mileage would drop, just as in regular gas compared to E85.
My background is neither in science nor finance but since I live in Los Angeles I have advanced degrees in viewing BS and things that don't add up have a tendency to make me wonder if they ever will add up.

@Lexbubles: What you are proposing is NOT feasible. Draw a diagram with inputs and outputs and you'll figure out why. Remember every conversion from electrical to chemical to inertial energy (and back) is inefficient (wasteful). All your solution would do is deplete the batteries sooner.

@archony: again, hydrogen is just an additive, as chris states, ethanol can be a superior fuel type, when the engine is tuned for it. There is a CHANCE that the hydrorunner technology used in the Scorpion, and the way the Scorpion engine is tuned improves efficiency as they claim, but the hydrorunner website is woefully lacking any scientific studies...

when you run the mix of petrol and hydrogen in a standard gasoline engine is there any adverse effects on the combustion chamber components?

scorpion super car
hello guys scorpion is a beautiful care of the world
this road performance is very well speacialy this shape.i think
this is a luxury car & very comfortable.
thanhs & best regards
sady.
sadysady@yahoo.com